EPISODE 1 TRANSCRIPT - GEMMA BARRY

Caitlin: [00:00:08] Hey everyone, welcome to TheDownThere: a podcast where we have candid conversations about all types of bodies, in order to destigmatize talking about what we keep “down there”.

 I’m your host, Caitlin and this is our very first episode. We’re so excited to have you here, and to share my interview with Gemma Barry of The Well Woman Project. But before we get into it, let me tell you a little about myself.

 Hi, my name is Caitlin Smith Rapoport, she/her. When I’m not behind this microphone I am a lighting designer for live entertainment based in New York City. I also have stage four endometriosis, a disease that wreaks havoc on the uterus and many adjacent parts if left untreated; which mine was, for years.

 That’s a story in and of itself, which I tell in our intro episode. Folks, if you haven’t listened the intro yet please hit pause and go check it out now. Not only will you hear the story that inspired this podcast- you’ll hear from some of our guests about what it was like to share their stories, and what TheDownThere means to them.

 I can’t think of a better way to kick off this podcast than with the person who transformed my relationship to my own down there. When I met Gemma Barry, I had just taken myself off of hormonal birth control for the first time in my adult life. The progesterone was keeping my endometriosis in check, but with side effects I could no longer cope with. I was done, but also scared that the endo would come raging back. If I was going to attempt regulating my cycle naturally, I really needed some guidance in that process.

 Gemma Barry, founder of the Well Woman Project, is a holistic practitioner and period expert who empowers her clients to get to know their cycles, and take charge of their menstrual health. In this conversation, Gemma talks about her work as a menstrual mentor, and her own journey to healthy periods. Here’s my interview with Gemma Barry of The Well Woman Project.

 Welcome, Gemma. Thanks for being here.

Gemma Barry: [00:00:41] Hi. It's great to have me here.

Caitlin: [00:00:46] Your title and expertise has a lot of commas to it. Please break it down for us. What do you do and what are the overarching themes of your work?

Gemma Barry: [00:00:58] Yes. How long have you got?

Caitlin: [00:01:01] I've got all the time in the world.

Gemma Barry: [00:01:04] So my background is nursing. I nursed for about fifteen years. And as I've always had a big input with health and I decided to step away from that and set up my own business. I worked a lot with birth and pregnancy to start with. Then my own health took a bit of a spin, if you like, and I suddenly realized all the problem periods that I'd had were for something. And I finally got diagnosed with endometriosis and adenomyosis. And I had a large ovarian cyst as well. So I had to have surgery to have that removed. And I was only offered a hysterectomy or to have hormones for the rest of my life. And I decided to fix it naturally. So there was kind of a catalyst of learning about herbs and Mizan and how I can balance myself with food and lifestyle changes. And this started me off on a trajectory with looking at menstrual stuff. And that opened up a whole new world of taboos that we don't talk about. And a lot of women want to talk about it and actually want the alternatives and they don't know that they exist. So that's kind of how Well Woman it was created.

Caitlin: [00:02:55] Now, when I approached you, I was also faced with sort of a non-negotiable hysterectomy in my near future. After having decided to take myself off hormone pills, I came to you out of a place really of fear for a body that I felt was out of my control. And you really changed that for me through a lot of the work that we have done together. Going back to what you were diagnosed with. Can you tell us a little bit about the diseases that you and some of your clients face in the day today where people come to you?

Gemma Barry: [00:03:41] Yeah, sure. So endometriosis and adenomyosis stay very close to my heart. And they are similar conditions. Endo Is where you get lesions of endometrial tissue outside of the womb and which is sticky and they can kind of grow all around the pelvic space and attach to stuff and create a lot of pain and misery for people. Adeno is like that, but on the inside. So, it grows into the muscle of the uterus. It can create heavy periods, painful periods, all that kind of stuff. So I work with women with those conditions all the way through to everything else, could be hormone imbalances, rubbish PMT, heavy bleeds, very light bleeds, trying to get pregnant, all facets because every woman is different. And sometimes you're not aware that you've got issues because the big lie is painful periods are normal. And that's kind of how we're conditioned.

Caitlin: [00:05:03] It certainly seems that we are conditioned that way. In fact, I remember not too long ago we were speaking and I asked you if it was okay that I didn't have a painful cycle this month for the first time, even after months of having you rail this into my head. I think that for so many of us period-havers, pain is a marker for normalcy when it really shouldn't be.

Gemma Barry: [00:05:35] Definitely.

Caitlin: [00:05:35] So it must have been a massive learning curve going from being a nurse to becoming a practitioner of herbal medicine and Mizan, among the many other things that you do. When you began the process of healing yourself, what existed out there in terms of resources for you?

Gemma Barry: [00:05:58] Not much, really. I came across a book called Code Red by Lisa Lister. She's a UK author. And that was a real game changer for me. It's the first time I'd read anything that suggested that periods could be any other way than how they are, or for me at that time. And it just blew my mind. I was like, wow, this is incredible. But really, I had to do all the legwork myself. I was my guinea pig, if you like, of trial and error with changing sanitary products, finding sanitary products that were different, finding reusable stuff or cups or anything like that, trialing different food choices and getting involved with other practitioners like an osteopath and a nutritionist to help me on my way. So my herbal course was really, really helpful because that opened my eyes to a lot more. And all of it came together in quite a slow way. But it's created change that will last forever. So, yeah, it's not something that you can do all in one go, but with consistent change and, you know, steps going forward, as you know, you get there and it's always about being kind to yourself because we're undoing a lot of messages that we had planted in our head for a long, long time.

Caitlin: [00:07:55] Could you talk a little bit about some of those messages that we sort of have ingrained in us?

Gemma Barry: [00:08:01] Yeah, sure. Well, periods are meant to hurt. That's one of the biggest ones. And that's kind of quite Marmite when I talk about that. Either people are like “no way, it just can't happen.” Or they're like “well, that's weird. That's a kind of weird possibility.” And then when it happens for people like you said you're like "Hang on, is that okay?" And I get that question asked a lot. But also, you know that it's disgusting. It's something we should not talk about. That's, you know, it should be a shameful event or that it should be kept, you know, kids even in schools now are encouraged to take out their sanitary products, you know, in an open way. Not have to wheel them around your head or anything. But just to be able to take, you know, take your tampon out without people going "oh what's that? You know, you can't show that."

Caitlin: [00:09:14]  I went to high school with a tampon up my sleeve.

Gemma Barry: [00:09:17] Yes. Always. Well, women still do that. And it's like, come on, we need to be over this now, 2019. Like, we just need to be able to crack on with it. But there's still so much stigma around it, like adverts still use blue liquid instead of red for the sanitary pad adverts. And you’re like “if I bled blue, I'd be worried.”

Caitlin: [00:09:51] As well you should be. So it seems like there's a lot of things we can do to improve our period health on our own. You talk to us a little bit about menstrual products. What are some things that we can do just in our everyday lives to improve our menstrual health?

Gemma Barry: [00:10:18] So one of the biggest things you can do is change your sanitary products for sure. All the commercial ones that you can buy in the supermarkets like Tampax, Always, Lil-Lets, all that kind of stuff are packed full with dioxins and parabens and bleach and all the rubbish stuff that when you think a period can last on average five days, you sat on that or it is in you for that amount of time. And so switching out to organic cotton disposable pads or tampons. Or, go one stage further and using renewables or a moon cup or diva cup, whatever, menstrual cups, there are loads of different kinds, which can be really, really helpful. And nutritionally, it's like making small changes. So switching out to organic dairy and meat, if that's what you eat can make a massive difference because those animals are pumped full of hormones and antibiotics and then we're eating that. And that can build up in our system. There's lots of things out there called xenoestrogens and phytoestrogens. Phytos are our food. So oestrogen's that come through our food and xenoestrogens come through products and toxins, makeup, shampoo, all that kind of stuff. So being more conscious about what's in our products and what we're eating and putting into our bodies will help us cleanse a lot of extra oestrogens that we don't need because all of those things are endocrine disruptors. So they can help us produce too much oestrogen, which leads to a lot of the problems that women have.

Caitlin: [00:12:26] I know that through my work with you, all of this information was such a huge swirl. I got off the phone with you. I'm thinking “oh my God, how am I going to make all of these lifestyle changes? This is unbelievable. I'm going to have to get rid of everything I own.” But the fact is, you don't really have to do that, and it is a way to start small. You led me to the Think Dirty app, which is a great app that you can use when you're going to the store to see what ingredients are in the things you're buying. And they have a little health score on there, right?

Gemma Barry: [00:13:04] Yeah, the Think Dirty App is amazing and you can find them on the Socials: Insta, Facebook, and get that app on your phone. The database is huge. So anything that you’re looking to buy, you can check out and see how dirty it is.

Caitlin: [00:13:26] It's been a really helpful tool, particularly because there are things that sort of claim to be organic or look healthy and natural, but actually aren't. Going back to the diet thing, through our work together and sort of my own explorations, I made the personal decision to go gluten free, dairy free, which has been a process, that's for sure. And I'm still struggling with it, but it has helped me feel better and less bloated.  I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about how estrogen and oestrogen affect our body physically.

Gemma Barry [00:14:14] So if you have endo or adeno, it can be really, really helpful to cut dairy and gluten from your body because they're so inflammatory. They're packed full of cytokines, which raise the inflammation in our body. So by eliminating that we then reduce the inflammation in our body and we reduce the amount of symptoms that we have. In fact, there's lots of studies coming through now to say how much endo and adeno has to do with gut health, more than hormones. But oestrogen is a really important hormone for us. It's the doer of the two halves of oestrogen and progesterone. But we have different types of estrogen. So estradiol is our best oestrogen. And the other types that hang out in our fat and that we ingest, just aren’t helpful and raise the level of oestrogen too much in our body. Hormones can be tricky to test because we're cyclical, and you have to catch it at the right time. But looking at symptoms you can determine what things are going on, and if your levels of oestrogen are maybe higher or your progesterone maybe a bit lower. And it's never as cut and dry as being one higher and one lower. It could be that one is much lower and so the oestrogen is then dominant because you haven't got enough progesterone. So working with the herbs and stuff is trying to find that balance. But we need to have healthy amounts of both so that our bodies ovulate and work in the best possible way, because if we're not ovulating then we're missing out on our progesterone and other hormones and stuff with that as well. We’re a fine tuned chemistry set.

Caitlin: [00:16:39] Speaking of ovulation, there's all different kinds of birth controls out there now. I myself have been on a good half dozen over the past 13 years or so, and I didn't realize how important ovulation is to our monthly cycle and to our general well-being.

Gemma Barry: [00:17:06] Yeah, it's so important. I was on the pill for ten years, so. And I think sometimes women can feel it is a bit judged. If we're like, oh, no, the pills terrible. And hormones, this that and the other. But they are because they stop ovulation, and the bleed that we get in the period is just a withdrawal from the pill. So that could be once a month, once a year, not at all. There's so many different types of varieties now that you can use. And there's a trend coming through now to sort of say that we don't need periods. Let’s just shut them off completely. But that ovulation is so key. And it's not just about pregnancy, which is something else that really irritates me because our bodies it, yes, it's about having babies, but it's not all at the same time because there has to be this chain of events for us to be healthy. And if we're not ovulating, then we're not getting our key progesterone hormones through. A lot of women who go on the pill find some sort of relief, but it comes back and savages them when they stop taking it. So it's just a Band-Aid. It's not actually getting to the bottom of the problem in the first place.

Caitlin: [00:18:45] As a former skeptic of going off of hormones, I can say from my own experience, when I finally did stop after years and years and years, it was like waking up and I didn't think that it was going to be that way. But there was this sort of ah ha moment of feeling like myself in a way that I didn't recognize was gone. So that was a really interesting side effect of our work together. Speaking of, I'd like to go back to more about how you treat your clients and what you do. You create their herbal remedies that you use on yourself and for your clients, right?

Gemma Barry: [00:19:29] Yeah.

Caitlin: [00:19:30] Can you tell us about those herbs, how they're used and what you treat?

Gemma Barry: [00:19:38] I've got a pharmacy practically my house now where I have loads of different herbs. I love them. And I've created herbs with names that I hope bring a little smile to people's face. So we've got a PMT brew, which is called Bitchin’ and we've got the Bloody Brilliant Tonic, which is vitex, chaste tree which is like THE women's herb. Basically it balances everything and sorts out so much stuff. It’s really quite good to herb to be on all the time. Yeah, I work with women who are having problems with pain, and we can get to the bottom of that with things like cramp bark, frankincense which is quite full on, myrrh, and ashwagandha is a really good one, too. For things like heavy bleeding, shepherd's purse, yarrow are really good for that, nettles. These are all the common names, and then you have different plants as well. I like poking around in different countries. So yeah, these herbs are blended in liquid form, or dried in teas, or made into creams and balms. And I mix up bespoke brews for people like yourself, you have a specific things going on, and then I've got my more general things that are available in my shop and people can buy, and I ship to the US.

Caitlin: [00:21:25] Yes, you do. Where are your clients?

Gemma Barry: [00:21:30] So all over. I am based just outside of London and I have clients in the U.S., France, Germany, Portugal, the U.K., all over. So where I work online and at my practice, I get to work with and meet people all over the world, it’s great.

Caitlin: [00:21:57] There are so many stages to our cycle over the course of our lives. Are you working with people across the spectrum from first bleed through menopause?

Gemma Barry: [00:22:12] Yeah. I'd love to work more so with first bleeders because I think it would be great to get in there and give this information to younger girls. It could be a bit tricky getting in schools and stuff. But I think whenever you find this information is good. Mostly it kind of rolls that women are on the pill for a long time, then they start to try to have kids and maybe that's coming off the pill or not having great symptoms after coming off of that or not being able to conceive is where I find a lot of my work. And I'm definitely creeping into perimenopause and menopause arenas now as well. Again breaking down myths that it doesn't have to be horrific, and that once you get to the point of perimenopause and menopause we aren't going to dry up like prunes and become obsolete.

Caitlin: [00:23:23] No, no, there is no becoming obsolete when your period stops. I have to say that stage of our cycle is still such a mystery to me, and as somebody in my thirties I really have no idea what to expect. Is there information out there about how our body changes? When we go from having these periods into pre menopause and then eventually menopause.

Gemma Barry: [00:23:55] Yeah. There's loads of groups and things on Facebook and the social media that's become really popular now. And there are lots of people out there like me doing stuff, and you need to find your fit with those kind of people. There's organizations, Menopause, UK is over here, and Endemetriosis UK in that kind of thing. And you can find information through the NHS, but it's all very on the board and not very alternative.

Caitlin: [00:24:37] Right.

Gemma Barry: [00:24:38] So very much about having HRT, and this is what can happen, and this is how we expect things to happen without always giving such a cheerful kind of outlook.

Caitlin: [00:24:53] Yeah. I mean, in reality, periods are not always cheerful in these stages of our life, are not always cheerful. Another component of the reason I sought you out is an anger that I personally had of the inability to find alternatives to the pill to treat my symptoms of endometriosis and some really nasty periods. In terms of what to offer to your clients, do you usually prescribe a combination of different treatments and techniques to the people that you work with? I imagine that it's pretty specific person to person.

Gemma Barry: [00:25:41] Yes, it is completely tailored. It depends. Sometimes if I can see people for Mizan for example then I can get my hands on them, which is always nice because that allows me to feel where the uterus is sat, if there's any kind of misalignments in the pelvis and stuff, which I can then sort out. If I work with people online, then I've got loads of resources, videos and instructional videos and stuff on how to do self care and things like that. And all the treatments and herbs and stuff are then completely tailored for that person. So everything is tailored to you because every woman is different, and her symptoms will be. So, although there might collectively be a lot of women who have painful periods, or heavy periods or endo for example, how they deal with that will be different. So it might be that we need to look more on stress management or digestion stuff or a mixture of everything and the hormones and tie in with that. What's interesting is that in medicine, we only focus on that particular body part. So for women's health problems is like “well, give them hormones or we'll chop bits out” you know, that's kind of it. Whereas actually, when you look at someone as a whole, you're starting to look at their digestive system, their liver, their adrenals, and the whole endocrine system as a whole. And then piecing all that together and using herbs to support that, massage techniques, mindfulness techniques, you can make a whole package which really helps.

Caitlin: [00:27:55] I know that personally before working with you as a mentor, when it came to my own menstrual health it felt like I was stumbling around in the dark with a candle, and now I feel like I have a much clearer picture of my overall health and wellness and how every aspect of our body is interconnected. That really kind of blew my mind.

Gemma Barry [00:28:21] Our minds and bodies are together. For some that can be a bit of a reach. But you know, how you think about your body really plays a part in how your body responds to you. When we start to look after ourself and be that mentally, physically, however, our health will change and our body is an amazing machine; it’s only wanting to stay healthy, and it compromises all the time. And basically, we tend to just only listen to it when it's screaming and we ignore all the subtle like "Hi, I'm not that great. Can you do something about this?" We ignore all that until we're floored; and then you pitch up somewhere and you're like “I need some help. Something's gone wrong.” So learning about how to look after your body, and know your body, to become the expert of your body is my biggest passion. Because once you know that, then you've got that experience going forwards, and that's what sets you up for looking after yourself for life.

Caitlin: [00:29:42] And that's what we want, really. A way to a way to sustainably take care of ourselves without interference or reliance on external forces forever.

Gemma Barry: [00:29:58] Yeah, definitely.

Caitlin: [00:30:01] I wanted to link back to something interesting. You said the last time we spoke about how for people with endometriosis specifically, and maybe other issues as well, it's sometimes hard to differentiate between things like anxiety and depression and what is a symptom of the actual disease. Can you explain a little bit more about that link and what you're seeing?

Gemma Barry: [00:30:26] Yeah, sure it’s very interesting. Endo can take on average, about 10 years to be diagnosed, and this might be a bit strong maybe, but its like the biggest form of gaslighting I've ever seen. Because women repeatedly go to see an expert and are told that nothing's wrong: “That's normal for periods to hurt this much. Go and get pregnant, that'll sort out.” You know? No one's listening, and eventually you get this diagnosis that you've got this condition, and you knew all along something wasn't right. But you're being told that something is completely normal. And so a lot of women feel justified I think, in thinking this way, quite bitter and upset and mistrustful of the of the support that they've received so far. And I think this then ties in with a lot of anxiety and depression happening. Because you think you’re going mad; something's wrong and no one's believing you, and no one's listening to you, and they're just giving you out random advice or putting you on the pill, and that may or may not be helping, and it’s really disgusting. I think it is really disgusting. And I think that's why we see so much mental health stuff with it, because we're not listened to. And a big, big part of my work, my work is listening and giving space to women to have this story and their voice heard, and that is very powerful.

Caitlin: [00:32:26] I mean, you're speaking directly to me here. One of the most impactful ways that working with you has changed my life is the permission to give myself time for self care each day. It's not hours and hours, but it's the little things that add up that make a difference.

Gemma Barry: [00:32:53] Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Self care is a big thing. You see this on the socials now and it's not selfish. But it’s more than a meme. You can't pour from an empty cup. So if we're running on high like “got to get everything done, got to do this” trying to live in the sunshine all the time, we just burn out because we need to take time out. And with our cycle it is a bit yin and yang, night and day. You know, the first part of it you’ve got a bit more energy. Second part of it, not so much. And if we honor that even a little bit, like maybe we don't go out in the second part of our cycle if we don't want to. And, you know, we just start to notice it by charting, we can make those adjustments. Then you feel better because you've got more energy. But it's okay to sit down for 10 minutes in your day with a cup of tea and a magazine and just detach from the world, or take five minutes to just sit in silence. That is so important. If our computers were left on all the time, you know, they, like, burn an image onto the screen. They have to shut down even if they just go to sleep, and our brains are exactly the same. If we don't do that, then we become sick and burn out, and that's where a lot of anxiety and depression can come from as well. Because we think we just have to keep going, and actually we don't. It's really okay not to.

Caitlin: [00:34:52] No, I mean, I haven't died yet.

Gemma Barry: [00:34:54] Yeah, exactly. The world won't stop, and part of it is our own ego thinking “If I don't do this, you know, then it's never going to get done” and “I'll only do it the best way I can” it’s bollocks, really. We've just got to accept that we can delegate stuff out, and actually putting ourselves first is really, really important., and we're better people for it.

Caitlin: [00:35:28] I think you're right, Gemma. Now that we're reaching the end of our session here, is there anything that you would like to talk about that we didn't cover?

Gemma Barry: [00:35:39] Oh, goodness. How long have we got?

Caitlin: [00:35:45] Hah, forever. I'm trying to respect your time that we had set up here!

Gemma Barry: [00:35:50] I think for me it’s opening up the conversation. It's like if you've listened to this podcast, and you've listened to something and you’re like “huh, I didn't know that.” Or “I wonder if that's true for my sister, my friend or my mom.” Ask those questions. Ask your friends about their periods. Start that conversation. Be brave, because I'm doing it all the time, and I tell you what, women love to talk about it. We don't because we think it's gross and no one will want to know. But actually if we do, then we start learning about what's different for other people; and if someone's really struggling, they might not know that. But if you say “Oh, I've heard this this woman talking about periods, you ought to go and listen to her.” Then that starts off a little ripple effect, and then that woman might go and seek help and she might not live with painful periods and heavy periods anymore. My hope is that everyone achieves boring periods, because I have them and I never thought it would be possible. And every month they come in and I'm like “I have no pain and no horrific heaviness anymore” and that's all down to my hard work, and that's what I want to pass forward. If I can just change one woman’s life then I'm happy, and I'm changing more than that. So I want that to be passed on by the women I work with. Like what you're doing with this, it's made an impression and you're wanting to pass that on to others. So keep the conversation going.

Caitlin: [00:37:37] You are an empowering force for sure, Gemma. If people are interested in learning more about you and what you offer through the Well Woman Project, where can they find you?

Gemma Barry: [00:37:50] So I have a website which is the WellWomanProject.com, which is my shop and blogs and all sorts of info in there on my courses and mentoring, and I'm on the socials. On Facebook I have a Well Women project page, and on Instagram well _ woman _ project. So yeah, come and find me. Hang out in my little corner of social media land and say hello. I love talking periods, you can always drop me a message or an email. That’s where you’ll find me.

Caitlin: [00:38:28] Everyone go check out Gemma's Instagram. She's always posting funny, useful, life affirming stuff. Her voice is truly unique and no bullshit, as you have heard here. I also wanted to mention that you can book a 15 minute session with Gemma if you're curious, through her website. If you want to learn more about what she does, go check it out, I highly recommend. Gemma, thank you so much for coming on the pod and sharing your expertise with us.

Gemma Barry: [00:38:59] Thanks, Cait for having me.

Caitlin: [00:39:02] Take care.

Gemma Barry: [00:39:03] And you. Bye bye.

Caitlin: [00:39:07] That was Gemma Barry of the Well Woman Project.

Since we recorded this interview, Gemma started her own podcast called Lost in Menstruation, where she gets more in depth on topics like hormones and sleep, endometriosis, adenomyosis, and a whole host of other subjects relating to menstrual health. You can find Lost In Menstruation on i tunes.

 If you want to learn more about Gemma’s work, or book a free 15 minute consultation go to her website thewellwomanproject.com where she also has a free period workbook, describing some common period problems, and great tips on making some immediate changes to start improving your menstrual health. Links to Gemma’s website, podcast, and socials are in our show notes.

 For a transcript of this episode, or to send us an email- visit our website theDowntherepodcast.com . We’d love to hear from you. You can also find us on instagram and twitter at thedowntherepodcast.

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TheDownThere is produced by myself Caitlin Smith Rapoport and Molly Hennighausen with music, sound design and editing by Kate Marvin, and graphic design by Jean Kim Studio. Thanks for listening! we’ll See you next time on The Down There.